(Dennis Higham). The stepped down portion of the male is 2/64's smaller than the sleeve. That is up to the tip transition point, or max tip stress point according to Garrison. Strong tip; butt has flex area from 45" to 80" then a butt swell at 80". In terms of rod design I think that it is really worthwhile considering as many design approaches as possible when trying to design and assess tapers. In fact, I had great trouble casting the bloody thing. ferrules, such as Mr. Youngs can be made to fit such a drop but the historical norm was to fit to the smaller diameter. A 2pc rod is much less vulnerable to breakage when fitted that way than a 3pc tip ferrule. A straight line taper could be arbitrary, but in this case it is very specific to line weight. To the right of that you'll see there is a column allowing for varnish. Regarding Chris Bogart's Dickerson. One of our most recognizable rod models with a deep flamed color and crisper action. faster tapers. Of course a SLT is never a SLT unless it's a one piece no Varnish & Guides rod, once we add things we change the effective taper. Regardless of what any book says about what size ferrule belongs on this or that rod, i look at the flat to flat measurements at the ferrule ends and make my own decision about what ferrule to use. This butt can be a foot shorter than the tip and of straight taper. I will let Bob speak to the numbers and how they were derived. Post You can do all the compensation you like for varnish thickness, ring weight and ferrules but you will still not produce anything like as good as a properly calculated compound taper rod. The trouble is, that's all it does! by canerodscom 05/09/09 02:32, Post Just give John a call and talk to him very nice guy with a lot of knowledge in Dickerson tapers. 40 0.184 Nowadays, some guys machine ferrules out of bar stock, and they have a reasonable way to make the openings different sizes on the top and bottom. In reading my post the tone seems a little harsh. Actually I feel an increase of .030 would be sufficient. As we all know, rods can often cast line weights one up and down from their designated ones. I'm probably going to have to find a use for one as it happens as a design for a 7'6'' #4 that is nearing ringing looks a bit beefy for a #4. 70 0.261 133729 As to my question about the ferrules is, your rods say, e.g. All 5wt with identical terminal tip and butt dimensions. .212 is way too big for a 13/64, it's well into the 14/64 fit range. Even then I wince about their roll casting deficiencies. His total production was fewer than 1,000 rods. (Bob Norwood), The point, whether you like it or not, is that you cannot design a rod that much exceeds mediocrity by using straight tapers. 15 .128 .278 0.334 That's not how they're made, see my previous post, or get a set of old time Leonard, Payne, Dickerson or anyone else's, other than cheep H-I or Montague's which had a necked down female, and measure them, the bamboo opening on both kinds of ferrules is the same on the male as it is on the female. (Mark Wendt), At least according to Jack Howell's measured tapers in "The Lovely Reed". This is the equivalent of a Powell B-8.70, a bit slower than the Powell B-9. Modified Lyle Dickerson 6611 Dry-Fly Action: 6' 6" 3 or 4: 11/64: 2/2: P702: Ponds, creeks . Is there anyone who could help us finding the right data conserning the taper. (Paul Blakley), I use the taper in Maurer's book, which is the same as Wane C's, which supposedly came from Young's mill. Adding material to the butt section will stiffen and add power. by avyoung 06/16/16 18:33, Post As you know line weight do vary so maybe your 8 wt is my 7 wt, or something like that? 45 .212 under reel seat, The numbers listed below are from Banjos' rod, 0 .084 .238 90 0.329 One of my favorite rods is a linear taper with a "slope" of .290/100". I do find that I am using much shorter rods than I did, I think its the American influence of this Listserv! Common sense tells me to leave the middle of the taper . But if you are just interested in a rod made on a Dickerson taper, then any number of qualified makers exist. This rod has some meat in the butt section and seems to mend a fair bit of line with ease. Rod makers history, value guide and general discussion, Link to Orvis Database by Greg Reynolds, Link to EC Powell's Mechanics of fly casting. I brought my recently acquired 861711D to Luray, Virginia to show/share with Chris at his rod shop open house some years ago. Ephemera, empherma and Ephemerella.. Photos, paintings, written stories and talents. It has a small flex area in the lower tip with a stronger butt sloping up toward the end with a good butt swell; fast rod. Regarding the similarities and differences between the 7'6" and 8' Dickerson's. They were severely inhibited by several difficulties. I can add that there is not one single straight line taper for each line weight. You bring up a question I have been trying to work through for some time. If you would like to give Michigan a try, let me know. 95 0.3435 (Tom Bowden). Post Mystic Outdoors is the premier manufacturer of high-performance fly fishing equipment for new anglers and seasoned veterans alike. (Frank Stetzer, Hexrod, Taper Archive, Rodmakers Archive). As good a seven and a half foot 3-piece rod taper as any ever designed. The rod is currently 7'-2" after a test fit so I want to trim to the correct 7-0 length. This is merely about applying engineering principles to designing a rod for a particular application. Digger Digere. Rod making, restoration, repairs and discussion on those related topics concerning bamboo rods. Lyle Dickerson's famed taper. I would specifically urge all to look at the graphs. All were very powerful eight weight rods with most of the action in the upper half. Here are the numbers someone else posted earlier this year for the Dickerson 8014 GS. Tell me about it please. Measurements under the handle are obviously estimates. Lyle Dickerson tapered copies Lyle Dickerson (1892-1981) has long been known as a pioneer in rodbuilding, due partly to his use of machinery in production but primarily appreciated by fishermen for many of his fast and accurate taper designs. The top snake guide on the butt has a bit of a bend to it. The only question that puzzles me is why on earth he thought this might be important for fishing the Risle, which is hardly the Tay. Click Here for Rod Raffle About Bob New Rods Purchasing & Shipping Dickerson Garrison Gillum Glass & Graphite Hardy Heddon Leonard Miscellaneous Rods Orvis Books & Catalogs Other Items Payne 0.102 Even if EC did "compound" his B-9 taper just in front of the ferrule for a specific reason, it wouldn't negate the fact that this is AT HEART A STRAIGHT TAPER. He has two Dickerson 7613 tapers, from 1952 and 1970, that show dimensions for a butt ferrule that would be 14/64 and a tip ferrule of 13/64. 0.288 (David Zincavage), You can inform your authority that he is wayyyyyyyyyy off base!! Dickerson 801611-D - 8ft 3pc 7wt Posted by Jeremy Gray, Aug 30, 2000. This means that the finished rod will cast like a ONE PIECE SLT rod. Get information on services and amenities, security protocols, health and safety measures, and more. by FWdB 05/08/09 03:32, Post The line weight standards are simply points in what is really a continuous spectrum. This will be three tips (light, heavy and SLT), three butts (light, heavy, SLT), a parabolic and a hinge. Assuming this to be thus you have made adjustments so small that they are mostly below normal error, and if we allow a factor for variation in natural materials then the exercise becomes entirely futile except as an exercise in applied physics! (Chris Obuchowski). (Tom Smithwick), See what Steve says, lots of people (Americans ? Especially if you know how the rods actually cast. The long column to the right of that is what we think the raw cane would have measured, subtracting for varnish, and interpolating between our measurements so as to put everything back on 5-inch stations. 35 0.1695 Can you direct me to where I can find more information on this? Even if you take off 0.006 for varnish, in case that wasnt done, its still a 7 1/2 wt. However, a straight line taper will create a rod in which the angle of deflection will increase from the butt to the tip at linear (constant)rate. For those of you that have built this rod, does it flex into the beginning of the handle? All of which indicates to me that there is not one 'correct' straight line taper. (Todd Talsma), I had rather hoped that I might finesse out of someone just what these specific requirements might be. 15 0.1115 (Stephen Dugmore). (Gordon Koppin), If I might ask: Which Perfectionist taper do you favor? Just for once I'm going to recommend a step down ferrule! This rod consists of medium tempered cane constructed in a 3x3 node pattern with Dickerson tan wraps and black tipping. (Robin Haywood). (Tim Pembroke). (Greg Reeves), TipsHome - What'sNew - Tips - Articles - Tutorials - Contraptions - Contributors - Search Site - ContactUs - TaperArchives Lyle Dickerson (1892-1981) has long been known as a pioneer in rodbuilding, due partly to his use of machinery in production but primarily appreciated by fishermen for many of his fast and accurate taper designs. 0.241 So now where do you add or subtract material and what effect will it have on the rod. 70 0.271 I would agree that one system is not all encompassing and I agree with the selection of evaluating criteria you outlined. The Dickerson 7612 taper a smooth medium action 4 wt that is 7 1/2 long in a 2pc. (Jerry Foster), Where do you get that? Kind of sounds like a pro Pickard crowd here. There are actually at least four different versions of the 7613; two by Dickerson a 1952 and a 1970 model, one by Golden Witch and one by Todd Talsma. .248@15 Interests: Building bamboo fly rods (occasionally), fly fishing for trout. Apparently, the 'old masters' were just building fishing rods and not too worried about picking the fly poop out of the pepper. They are very nice 5 weights ( IMHO it is THE 8 5 wt). Crisp, strong, smooth, versatile. 10 .310 .159 761510: 7'6" 3/2 5 wt. 4 wt 0.0680 Ya'll, I have built this & I use a 6 weight forward on it. The varnish is in good condition. Garrison's tapers may have been all right in his day, for the equipment and applications he was designing for, i.e. (Steve Weiss), That opens up another question. Help from forum members would be welcomed. They would be, Heavy butt section, Light butt section, heavy tip, light tip, Parabolic (heavy in the middle) and the hinge (light in the middle). John Pickard only way to go. Dickerson 8015 Guide Special By Jim Schaaf, 2458 - 11. (Frank Stetzer, Hexrod, Taper Archive, Rodmakers Archive), As far as being a Straight horizontal Stress Curve it makes NO difference what the rod is as long as the conditions produce a SHSC. I think you are being a tad myopic, if you can't see that .016, .014, and .015 AVERAGE OUT to equal .014". This is one of those bio-feedback things you must be self taught IMHO. However many people may like them, does this mean they cannot be improved on? DICKERSON 8013 RBS Special - 8' 2/2 - 5wt- honey colored - the legendary 8013 Special is an impressive and powerful med/fast action all-round trout -- taper miked from a Ray Bergman original shop rod. Consider this, the aspect of looking at tapers as deviations from straight lines is most valid when you are designing from numbers and not from stress or deflection. This first set was posted on The Classic Fly Rod Forum by Jeff Fultz. I always use Super Z, but I am not really into creating exact reproductions. 0.160 You can draw a straight line between the tip and the butt of any taper. Dickerson rods have the charm of being different (and scarce). in practice however, there is little point in going below 7'6'', really. If I were to make it I would use .040 bring the 80" value to .328, this is enough to stop all the rod action. "God made dogs to steal our hearts and they do.". Can do a little better some days, but not always. Pt 0 is the butt side of the strips. That is all I did! 0 0.068 I have built Russ' version, which I believe was posted yesterday, and I love it. The 7012 HB is super light, and can cast with the best of them. 0.369 (Al Baldauski). A taper is a fishing rod term that defines the rod length, optimal line weight, and rod flex action. 1 wt 0.0540 the stated ferrule dimensions always follow from the TIP dimensions, not the butt dimensions. The last page shows our interpolated numbers, on 5 inch stations, with varnish already subtracted, using both the Howell method (measure stations from the butt up) or the "classic" method (measure stations from the tip down.) (Will Price), Is not 7'6'' a bit short for a five weight? by trouttrapper 06/12/16 09:32, Post Easy casting and very versatile. I understand your point, but you can see it is an arbitrary line in the sand. ), Then as it was, then again it will be. 0.196 It made a fine rod, but you have to smooth out the taper leading into and out of the 45 and 50" stations as the rod was designed for a step down ferrule. (Will Price). (Harry Boyd), In Dickerson-speak, does a 7613 have a 14 on the butt to 13 on the tip or a 13 on the butt to 12 on the tip stepdown? 0.093 As most of you already know Paul Young was notorious for having quite a few different tapers for the same model over the course of his career. 0.178 My original point, with which you took issue, was: I just wanted to make the point that there's a difference between a rod with a straight taper and one with a straight, flat stress curve. So I thought I would answer that question and build one. One authority I know claims Jim Payne actually built more fly rods than Orvis. That's the "raw cane" numbers. the grip so I did some interpolation. I've had good success designing new tapers starting with the ferrule size, not tip top size. I am sure there are situations where a bit more length would be helpful, but who am I to argue with Mr. Dickerson? (Jerry Foster). But all you have done is show the straight line taper for between two dimensions. Maybe it is the version of the taper they are making, there are several out there. The 8014 taper was devised later in Lyle's life and reflects both this ma Bill Wara. For example, the 8013 taper I use is .202 at the ferrule end of the tip, and .212 at the ferrule end of the butt. Garrison would have like straight line stress/strain results for the same reason Richard Walker did. (Robin Haywood), Is 8'4" a bit long for a 4 wt.? Gift of Heidi Bedford, Yearc. It seems several people have made rods for a given ferrule size (Dickerson #) with a size larger Super-Z. These are Bob's dimensions. 5 wt 0.0720 On Corrib I used an 8'8''#4 nearly all the time, in fact I designed it for the job. 0.266 There are no great tapers and nobody invented anything. Bamboo Tips - Tips Area 0.278 .288@30 But if you decide to tell the world that this is therefore the right way to design a fishing rod then I'm going to disagree with you!" In practice most people these days do not take well to these technically correct ideas, preferring a slope to the straight line, giving higher strain levels near the tip, i.e. 0.256 The most interesting rods have a distinctive type of action, and a particular form and design, which is distinctive, and which seems to express a particular maker's vision. 42 .194 .066 (Max Satoh), Yep, the drop at the ferrule is .014 which should call for the use of a step down. Most of the ones I have made and sold are the PHY Perfectionist taper. It could very well be that you could order just as fast a Payne. Line Size Tip Size In the hands of a good caster, this taper will make a fly line do things that amaze. 0.350 by avyoung 06/17/16 00:43, Post (Mark Dyba), Heh, nothing wrong with that. 0.120 Since the time he was with the Deschutes Rod Co. in Seattle he has built rods with Dickerson tapers. This is because the laws of physics don't tend to change much. Just like the makers of Ping golf clubs, who ban their retailers from selling on the internet, I do not see how it is possible to make a rod for someone without the presence of that person for a considerable time on a casting court. Although it takes only 3 sizes to make a given size ferrule, he may have made a specialty set. (Bob Norwood), I was wondering if anyone has tried out the Dickerson 8615 7wt, the Garrison 221 7 wt, or the Payne Canadian Canoe 7 wt? I like 8013's. The ID of the female ferrule where it accepts the male slide is .187", or 12/64. and .360@45. Dickerson Rods. Let's be honest about this. This taper, starting with a .068 tip dimension, makes a great middle distance 8' WF6 or 7-1/2' 5wt. (Jerry Foster). The following taper was taken from a varnished 8013. I have never seen an actual inch by inch measure and measure for ferrules listed that I felt was more reliable than this. is obviously your opinion, which you are entitled to. Chris likes it for Smallmouth on the Shenandoah. (Jerry Foster), I agree. (John Silveira). (Robin Haywood). Don't leave us hangin' here with a sniper shot and leave ;-) (Mark Wendt), Truth be known, I prefer Payne to Dickerson. Not that I very much care, these people have a perfect right to their willful ignorance. I have always wondered why we don't just build linear tapers. Dickersons original taper was as Mark stated and a true 5 wt. Yes you do have the seemingly limitless variation of moving the point or points and amount of material added or removed along the rod length. by avyoung 06/12/16 21:25, Post 0.360 (Tim Pembroke). (Jimmy Chang), I have made rods using both tapers. 0.189 This should cause some debate as a lot of our American cousins rave about this wimpy stick? Winston Rods. If it's starting at the cork, somebody got their dimensions messed up. I Have commented additionally, if trivially in a private post on the other points. Spurred into rodmakingby losing his job in the great depression, Lyle Dickerson would go on tobecome one of the masters of the craft. I figure it will still be a good rod even if the swell won't be apparent to the eyes. I will be bringing it to Korea next trip to go for trout here in the eastern mountains. Are you so precise in your planing that all your stations are bang on, with less than .001"? Can someone email me the taper or point me in the right direction? .203 is about all you can get into a 13/64 ferrule. . (Paul Blakley), I think a 7'6'' rod is short for any line weight. All Dickerson copies include Dickerson aesthetics, blued ferrules & an agate stripping guide if desired. I was contemplating a rod with a 3.5 ft tip section and interchangeable butt sections of maybe 2, 3 and 4 ft lengths. It seems that a Garrison-type taper with a straight, flat stress curve would be the most likely to be tolerable. The Dickersons that I've seen were similar. All of these factors when considered together give a better picture of the rod than any one does in isolation. To all of them and their contemporaries we are grateful . Overhanging trees? by cwood 05/08/09 02:51, Post Interesting thoughts on line weight and the first 20", I will have to roll that one around in my head for awhile. The 6 for the Hex the 7 for streamers. (four piece) carbon fiber fly rod blank $85.00 13' 7/8wt. I want to build a rod that does what a Dickerson 7613 does when casting and fished. This in itself is a very interesting exercise. The '51 is a bit softer. If you want to make overweight rods with unnecessarily heavy tips and relatively floppy butts then straight tapers will deliver. The point is this: a straight taper only leads to a flat stress curve, as you say, UNDER THE RIGHT CONDITIONS. The 7613 Golden Witch version, a 6 wt, has a somewhat softer tip than the 8013 getting stronger toward the lower tip. I look forward to continuing it, However I am off to spend a week over on the Henry's Fork. 15 0.115 163502 CFRF Tapers Tapers from Classic Fly Rod Forum The links below are to "classic" tapers posted to the Classic Fly Rod Forum (http://classicflyrodforum.com) in the Taper Exchange subforum. Perhaps you can see why I think that a 1500 cane rod may be a bargain! The conversion file will convert tapers for Solid and Fluted rods for quad, penta, hepta, and oct construction. We now have solid parameters around which to modify, to refine rod design characteristics. (Reed Guice), Dickerson used the ferrule sizes in the rod to denote both the ferrule and the number of pieces in the rod. Thanks for posting the Dickerson 861711 taper. I would also like to know why a Dickerson 7613 taper imparts those characteristics. by dkrismer 06/12/16 20:36, Post These get assimilated quite directly into stress curve approach. 0.102 50 0.203 148510 The ordeal with the broken rod changed my whole way of looking at ferrule sizes. Over the time I have made rods. The last tip measurement (that goes into the male ferrule) is .204. Information About Makers and Manufacturers, Appraisals & Identification of Bamboo Fly Rods. (Bret Reiter), I call this one a seven too. $ 1950us w/two tips, DICKERSON 7012 - 7' 2/2 - 4wt- honey colored - medium action, wonderful 4wt$ 1950us w/two tips. I love the 7612 Taper. All of the tapers that I am finding appear to be using a Super Z. I am not wanting to start the Super Z vs. (Henry Mitchell), Yes but those 2 particular tapers are what many Dickerson aficionados refer to as the 7613 Guide and are much more comfortable with a 6 wt line than a 5 wt. The slope of the taper of this rod is .014/5" or a B-8.4 (taking the average drop from 80" thru 0"). Obviously, custom tapers take a little longer to develop and build. My 2 cents. Whether you're picking out your very first fly-fishing rod or coming in for a new modern fly reel after years out on the water, Sportsman's Warehouse can supply you with the very best fly-fishing equipment. Great conversation. (Bob Norwood). BTW, Paul, different strokes for different folks. Powered by Shopify. Dickerson R.W. (David Atchison), Didn't Dickerson make his own ferrules and weren't they slightly oversized? 0.088 ever wonder why all those 10 1/2/64 Heddons broke at the female ferrule? I am sure that the step-downs are important in copying the taper design exactly. Only lost 1/2 inch in rod length. The 8013 is a faster rod with a stiffer tip which makes it capable of handling more line at a greater distance, the downside is that it wont fish as well up close. I have fished some pretty big water with this rod and it has served me very well. 20 .140 .298 (Nick Nasello), I made the Dickerson 8615 last year for lake bass and liked it but it does get to be a bit if a bear to cast after about 3 hours. I think you have fallen into the same trap that so many people do and forgot to realize that Stress Curves are only good for the conditions under which they are derived; change the conditions and you have changed the Curve. These are our limited edition models, only released every few years. I deducted .005 for the varnish. (Lowell Davis), The 8013 is definitely NOT a longer version of the 7613. No Question about it, John Pickard. 30 .174 .322 Granger. by bluesjay 06/19/16 13:59, Post I have looked on the Rodmakers site under tapers and it is not listed. (Mark Wendt). Dickerson 8014 8' 5wt. 0.206 Consider this one if your maker plans on using Super Z ferrules. Dickerson 7012 (1954) from "the Lovely Reed". I highly recommend him. 5 .096 .244 Over the last few days there has been a long thread about rods breaking at the female ferrule. There is a view that all the great tapers have already been invented. 0.174 I've cast the original and it is one strong casting rod and deserving of the Guide Special nomenclature. 45 .216 .375 It will be one of the rods in what I am calling my Basic Reference Taper set. (Gary Nicholson). (Steve Weiss). 0.288 Remember that respect and civility is the goal of this board. (John Channer), Well, the #13 Payne ferrules that I've mic'd had a female ferrule internal diameter of .203" and the step-down internal diameter of .1875". It was a rod I hate. 35 .186 .326 (David Atchison), Wondered if anyone had the taper for the Dickerson 8012 laying around. I have also noticed the mention of a Dickerson 8014GS. 40 .200 .070 This system could also be very helpful to understand why a classic taper feels the way it feels. More than an eight weight is required to handle the largest of flies. Determine the effect of adding or subtracting material as to what effect it will have on rod action, we can design rods for a specific purpose. (Paul Blakley), I have a taper for the Dickerson 7613 and am a little confused. Very Good condition. (Rich Jezioro). 0.178 Here's a classic Winston from the Hexrod taper archive. Thanks for the feedback, very helpful. There are about 4 to 5 version of the 7013, I like the 1970 version the best. The rod action will not resemble a straight line taper any longer. Lyle Dickerson oft written about little powerhouse of a rod. Daryll Whitehead would be another good choice. They did not understand that a slow taper pole will bend near the point of grip under stress, whereas a fast taper will bend increasingly towards the tip as the rate of taper increases. In the end I don't want to necessarily build a Dickerson 7613. Could this be the difference between an 861711D and an 861711? 1951Accession No.1987.010.024Made byNARMCO, The American Museum Of Fly Fishing . The 7613 is a wonderfully versatile taper, the rod is light in the hand, and is at home casting sizes #6 Muddlers to #16 Dry flies. 20 0.131 154180 I don't disagree with any one here in fact I think you are all correct. To my way of looking at this taper, its definitely an 8 wt. the 3pc tapers were appropriated from other makers so it does not always hold true in that case. . I've built this one which was posted to the rodmaker's listserv years ago. I only use short rods on overgrown streams. I always encourage customers to try before they buy. 30 0.155 Right, I've printed that off and made a brief study. Tom Smithwick. The rod I measured generally has 3/3 node spacing with the exception of two nodes falling right next to each other. Harry Boyd ----------- Harry Boyd http://www.canerods.com [email protected] Aransas.clarks Guide Posts: 301 It's the important half, too, the other one is less important than line weight, I refer you to the basic laws of aerodynamics, this post is already too long! It's really funny that a True Arc turns out to be a parabolic taper (how drunk were those guys?). The 1st station on the butt section is NOT .214, it should be.208@0, then as follows: .214@5 Except for where the swell begins, the butts are similar as well. Hardy Fly Fishing Rod Trout Fishing Rods & Poles 8 Guides, Hardy Fly Reel Trout Fishing Reels, Hardy Trout Fishing Rods & Poles, What I do is look at the actual flat to flat measurements of the blank at the ferrule ends, match it against the chart for the best fit. (Mark Wendt), Thanks Dennis! Sold Out $4,050.00 Description Particulars For your consideration is a Lyle Dickerson model 8013 bamboo fly rod made in 1948. the mid is 42' and the closest measurements are 40" and 45" SO 2/5THS THE DIFFERENCE WILL BE BETWEEN 40 AND 42 AND 3/5THS THE DIFFERENCE WILL BE BETWEEN 42 AND 45th. How drastically do you think it would change the action if I pushed the swell out in front of the handle? At location 45, the taper shows the numbers 208/213. (Timothy Troester). The 6611 has a swelled butt unlike many versions I've seen and is an especially sweet rod. (Will Price), Dickerson standardized his reel seats with a 3/8's inside diameter bore, hence the .375 under the grip and reel seat. I have one of his 7625's, and it's a great rod, being a 7613 replica. Experience the difference of a Mystic Fly Rod on your next expedition. Take a Garrison. All but the parabolic and the hinge will have the same ferrule dimension so tips and butt sections can be interchanged to create any of the major taper variations. The other point is that in the case of, for want of a better word, 'non-extreme' rods, I believe that what happens in the top 20" is the primary determinant of the line weight. (Mark Shamburg). Hence the short butt long tip "BSAS" conformation of some of the better iterations. All sections are full length and straight. If you want a rod that feels like a SLT then you must compensate for the ferrules and varnish and guides by adding the proper amount of bamboo at the correct points on the taper. Chris acquired one shortly thereafter. I fail to see anything in the manor of specifications for your making a point that you feel there is a difference between the two, in fact I would like to show you that they are, under the right conditions, EXACTLY THE SAME. I would describe the rod action as very powerful, as you would expect from most Dickersons. I think I originally posted this taper as Russ personally sent it to me. I will suggest that rodmakers as a whole are not (especially the "classics" who were trying to make a living by banging out rods), but also that minor variances of a few thousandths occurring at random do not have a large impact on the rod actions as a whole. by avyoung 06/12/16 18:13, Post But if you change any of these inputs, the taper, length or weight of line cast, the stress curve will no longer be flat. (Robin Haywood), This would be very easy, but would impact on other desirable qualities. (Greg Reeves), This version appears to me to take a step into account. At The Airport. CSE makes and sells this kind of "step-down" ferrule, from tubing, as Dickerson did. Chris' rod is also an 861711D. 90 0.296 157251. We will see how it turns out. It's a two piece, 8 foot five weight. Look at a graph of the rod dimensions. Made by Top Ten Tapers in Twinsburg, Ohio. All rights reserved. 10 .110 .254 (Will McMurrey), Just very briefly, a Castle Connell taper is a good example, where you have a curious reverse taper in the upper part of the lower half of the rod. Some good stuff here. A significant part of that application are the prejudices of the person who is going to be using it. Powell Rods. by Mike McGuire 06/16/16 23:29, Post When things are stated incorrectly, many of the newer makers on the list can get very confused. I would be very interested in hearing what you have to say about the differences between the two tapers. by alpom 05/08/09 03:35, Post by mosquito 05/08/09 09:33, Post by Lee Koch 06/12/16 21:18, Post (Paul Blakley). I just wanted to make the point that there's a difference between a rod with a straight taper and one with a straight, flat stress curve. The file will convert hex tapers to Quad, Penta, Hex, Hepta and Oct tapers. Spotted lanternfly is an invasive plant hopper native to eastern Asia. I recently sold a rod to a customer blind on the phone. According to Hoagy Carmichael Jr. who filmed a documentary for Boston Public TV, the Payne Rod Co. made approximately 12,000 rods during it's existence. Talk to any of the 'boo boys who used to work at Winston, and they'll tell you Winston tapers are basically straight (I got that straight from Jeff Walker). . So it seems that we are actually in complete agreement. It does handle a 7 very well too. 0.320 I just fished them both side by side on the Green River. Manchester, VT 05254 For any thing else but roll casting or keeping a very finite weight of DT in the air, it's useless. You don't find a need for a 7'6" 5wt on your streams. 35 .207 .086 Any rod with a straight taper under load will feel to a greater or lesser extent, unnecessarily heavy in the tip and too soft in the butt. The stepdown in the female is from a 14/64 ID where the ferrule goes over the bamboo to 12/64 ID where it accepts the male slide. Its just simply to do with maximum stiffness (IE minimum deflection) for a given material weight. (Robin Haywood). But if you really like Dickerson tapers (i sure do) then getting a good maker to whip up his version of that taper while using his personal cosmetics would be my first choice. Tuesday - Sunday, 10am to 4pm, Winter You can built say a 5wt using a 13/64 ferrule and any of these slopes, and they'll all be 5 weights, but if you do the math you'll see that the tip dimensions would vary greatly. (Mark Wendt), Was the varnish allowance of .004 already subtracted from the numbers for the 661510, or does it need to be done? anyway that's how I do it. by JohnI 05/09/09 04:06, Post Has anyone cast both 1949 and 1951 versions of the Dickerson 8013 as described in Howell's book? OK, the rod was a Paul Young Perfectionist. The part of the ferrule that fits over the bamboo on the tip section (male ferrule) had the same exact inside diameter of .221" INITIALLY! Is the 8013 just a 6" longer 7613 or what are the differences? I hope this helps you out some, they are actually all nice rods, but as I said there is a little different in line sizes. 0.232 55 0.2275 5 0.088 112541 Why? 40 .200 under grip At the Grayling gathering, Bill Harms gave a presentation of Marinaro's approach to rod design. 60 0.231 142296 (Will McMurrey), A picture says a thousand words. Find great quality fly fishing rods at an affordable price that fits any budget. The 1970 Dickerson has the same type tip as the 1952 except it has a very shallow flex in the upper butt and a faster swell into the butt, a 4/5 wt, faster rod. I have limited the list as practical to tapers which are not obviously taken from Hexrod.net, in RodDNA, or in contemporary books such as Howells, Gould or Mauer. I beef up the last 3 inches of the tip to fit the 14/64 male ferrule. Please allow up to 120 days for completion of your new rod. The reason I also advise using stress curves is that when you make changes, add or remove bamboo, you also effect the rest of the rod. To this Robin brings up the complications created by the weight and placement of ferrules etc. (Mark Wendt), Dickerson (like all of us who draw their own tubing) used 1/64 wall tubing to construct his ferrules. (Steve Weiss), That's the rub isn't it? $239.00 + $24.95 shipping (2) Vintage HEDDON PAL Casting Rods - #6277 Wormer 5'6"+ #6273 Musky Special 5' . Because Ritz was not an engineer, any more than Creusevaut or Plantet were (although the latter may have been a competent mechanic) it was thought that the extension pole should be just that, a large diameter pole of slow taper. If you want the rod to have the same characteristics as before the change, the you must add some cane to the mid/butt of the rod to maintain the balance that was there before. Its the old problem, everyone wants to tell us what they think the answer is, but they never want to tell us why in terms unequivocal and universal! 0 .084 .238 (2 1/2" @ ferrule wrap) If you 'hide' columns you can then compare and easily see differences in any combination of selected rod tapers. I will assume that you have calculated those several effects correctly, although I see no details. Perhaps I did not state myself clearly. Measure over original varnish. Jim Payne. This rod belonged to rodbuilder Tim Bedford. I fish mostly Michigan streams where you are wading the stream casting to the edges, and casting to rising fish wherever you are lucky enough to find them. 0.275 That's not a lot to ask is it? If you want to adjust for a different varnish assumption, or if you want to interpolate differently, then our actual measurements are there for you (or anyone, of course) to do so. by cutthroattroutnm 05/09/09 16:50, Post .278@25 if you were to use this type of ferrule, you might choose one that has a 13/64ths opening on the top, and a 14/64ths opening on the bottom. 0.144 A straight taper may always lead to a more or less straight stress curve but it will only be flat if a lot of stars are in alignment. Examples would be different techniques or methods used by restorationists and makers. 6 wt 0.0752 Your projected experiment may be described as simplistic and wasteful of time by some, but I think that you will learn a very great deal about what you personally like about taper rates. Lyle Dickerson Spurred into rodmaking by losing his job in the great depression, Lyle Dickerson would go on to become one of the masters of the craft. that'd be super! This board is for discussing the collecting of bamboo fly rods, both classic and modern. It throws up some very interesting facts. The rod in question has a test curve of 4 ozs, by the way. It's an Asian knockoff of a Dickerson 7012 4WT 7-0 taper. For the tip section use the smaller number and for the butt section use the larger number. So the data exists both ways in the spreadsheet. (There is a table of blue numbers for each rod section). Gillum Rods. I've also made an 8-1/2' with tip dimension of .072, which made a really nice 6/7 weight. by Jim 05/08/09 01:45, Post 5 .092 .242 I own one of his 7612s and it's a wonderful rod. 60 0.242 That has compensation for the ferrule and the Varnish & Guides. 0.120 Parabolic is a marketing term and thus entirely meaningless in discussions on rod design. You can easily introduce straight line tapers as well. Are there specific numbers at the ferrule for, say, an 8013 where a 14/64's ferrule is used? 10 0.101 154505 Cynically, but I may not have entirely given up, yet. On a theoretical straight line or linear taper the rod would load progressively down to the handle. I think of it as an 8013G. I think I can reply for Dennis, as I was one of the guys who measured those rods. I won't know the difference if it isn't perfect but want to do things approximately correct. All of the Dickerson tapers I have made using Super Zs have been great. It was normal at the time to fit ferrules to the tip and undercut the butt to fit. (Reed Guice). To my knowledge there are at least 3 versions of the 7613 out there. Now you have a rod in the length, line weight and number of section you want. 0 0.072 - Worked well enough for me to pass the test. A lot goes into crafting a bamboo fly rod and here you can learn more about our approach. Quite a disparity. 2023 American Museum Of Fly Fishing. Edwards Edwards #25 Quad - 7ft 4wt light tip If you read this Bob, I would be interested to know how you choose your tip dimension and rise? The difference is for a step-down ferrule. Dickerson was a self-taught rodmaker who designed his own rod-milling and planing equipment. (John Channer), I have never been able to describe to anyone else how a rod feels to them. (Will Price), You can adapt the taper that calls for a step down by putting a slight swell at the male ferrule end of the taper so that a super Z or super Swiss ferrule will work properly. I would say it's a strong 7 wt, but it should work well with a 8 WF. Reducing material in the butt section will make the butt more limber and allow flex deeper into the butt. But all right is not a euphemism for excellent. 0.153 The taper on David Ray's site is an 861711D. I think the perfectionist is a fine taper and rod. When fishing bamboo for trout I believe the "best" length is an 8 foot rod. And, after you "get used to it" you will fall in love with this rod taper. Tapers are very personal things. (Robin Haywood). A Powell B taper by definition is a straight taper. Maybe they were off a little but I have no reason to believe that if his 13 die were 13.5 he would not have marked it thusly. 1 2 3 45 0.1985 0.088 0.232 I don't think anyone fishes the same. (Henry Mitchell), In Dickerson-speak, it would be a size 13 on the butt, and a 12 on the tip. Though the course may change sometimes, rivers always reach the sea. Casting range allows for some delicacy up close and personal, to the times that you want to reach out and touch someone a bit further away. If you are designing a rod based on a linear taper and you want to make it a 3 or 4 piece instead of a 2, how would this be taken into account? Typically it is a heavy tip section combined with a light butt section. Pt Butt Tip Besides that, he's extremely knowledgeable about Dickerson, is the present owner of the Dickerson rod shop, and has an extreme reverence for Lyle's creations and tapers. I have made quite a few Dickerson tapers. All he needed to do was speed up the butts, preferably with a concave taper form, and he would really have been cooking with gas! Stress curves are the only tool I have seen that give you a visual image of exactly what you have changed and the consequences of that action. I think it is a fantastic taper. by LeeO 05/26/17 07:47, Post Its definitely a bigger water rod that the 7613. 6-strip Tonkin bamboo My question is, as I plan for my next rod, are these the same rod or is there a difference? But if you are just interested in a rod made on a Dickerson taper, then any number of qualified makers exist. 0.196 (If memory serves me right Tony Young sells step down ferrules for Dickerson rods, so you may try that.) In the upper left corner, in blue, you'll see the real measurements we took, for all 3 flats at each measurement point. (Matthew French), Different rods, the 8014 is a true 6wt, the 8014G (G stands for guide) is a heavier rod, a point and shoot, no false cast, lay out a ton of line type rod. .but like most opinions you will find that many on this list (and in the world at large) are not going to agree with you. The butt has a long flex area from 45"- 75" and a butt swell. Consider one or the other of these two if your rod maker intends to fit the rod with step down ferrules, since there is a .010" step down across the ferrule stations. (Mark Dyba), Okay, to continue the discussion, what are they, and why? I have a chart of the dimensions at home, if you need a copy email me off list. I can always build another and I'm sure I will. They were both practicing engineers! I've made at least a dozen Perfectionists (most with a swelled butt so they aren't exactly the same) and all their owners love them. F E Thomas. It might depend, but only a bit, on what you call "very nice" and I see that your figure for station rise was almost exactly the figure I suggested. Just have finish paying for the last kids college. I really must stir myself to come and fish them, it's time that's the enemy. If you move it up to the mid section you might add a hinge that gets involved in the normal cast.. which is usually to be avoided. As this was my favorite rod, much foul language followed. (Chris Obuchowski). that drop is a hallmark of all 2pc dickerson tapers. This gives a quick, accurate impression as to what type of taper the rod is made from (straight, parabolic, compound, etc.) If you are looking for a Dickerson rod or have one that you would like to sell please contact us. 65 0.2565 (If memory serves me right Tony Young sells step down ferrules for Dickerson rods, so you may try that. Take a virtual tour of our terminal and view our campus map. It is, literally, the shape of the rod itself and determines how . There seems to be a misunderstanding about the results this yields. He has some of the original taper ledgers from Dickerson's shop and can clone a rod as well as anyone. (Bob Norwood). (Mark Wendt), I am wanting to build a Dickerson 7012 but cant find a taper that accounts for the step downs. Grayrock 96. And, it's true, if you were really screwed and couldn't get a Dickerson, and were absolutely forced to rough it with a Payne, I do think you could manage to get by without shedding too many tears. Design notes: Dennis Higham's 861711 found in David Ray's taper archive is also designated a 'D' model. I think we can say that adding more material to a tip section would produce more power and reducing material on the tip section will increase accuracy and delicacy of fly presentation. 0.360 (Jay Hake). The point here being, if we can define areas along the straight line or linier taper. This board is for discussing the repair and restoration of bamboo fly rods, makers discussion and construction techniques relating to same. I could probably improve just by buying a new cheap file.. Rod making, restoration, repairs and discussion on those related topics concerning bamboo rods. 25 .160 .308 You can design a flyrod, racing bicycle, airplane or motorcar to do one thing superbly with ease. Short cased and portable. Brewer Rods These rods use tried and true taper designs as a starting point. Dave Norling, Rush River Rods, makes a stepdown 13/12 ferrule, the only size stepdown that he offers , that works very well for this taper. Some rods, I think, have a regional quality to them, too, and just holding them gives one a kind of flavor of a particular time and place. I am assuming this is an unvarnished rod. (Robin Haywood), Why don't you design some roll casting ability into every rod? Must have been a real thrill to cast Banjos' rod. Listed as 7 wt but that seems kinda heavy? Point Dimension Orvis passed the 60,000 bamboo rods made number quite some time back and of course is still making them. (Inches) (Inches) Stress All Rights Reserved. 0.128 You may think you are being rude about "Classic" production methods, but they're probably better than mine. (Will McMurrey). Also, your shorthand doesn't describe where these changes take place, which is as equally as important as the changes themselves. Is that the 1949 or the 1951 version? All Dickerson copies include Dickerson aesthetics, blued ferrules & an agate stripping guide. It's all pulled through by hand. Dennis looked over his rod and it, too, has two nodes right next to each other. Tel: 802-362-3300, Summer Rods also tend to have varying sweet spots in terms of when the amount of line out feel just right. The rest of the shown increase is, in my opinion, just for looks. You could have chosen Tom Fulk's true arc taper as the norm and try to describe the deviations from that. That's so the swell is still in the action length. I have fit the ferrules but not glued them up yet. Some use this to define the average rod speed. For example a 13 was really a 13.5? Its a very useful exercise. In other words as the load increased, more of the rod would flex in a liner fashion. (Peter Jones) 8ft #5wt. 0.369 But if you decide to tell the world that this is therefore the right way to design a fishing rod then I'm going to disagree with you! I would suggest you should RESPECT the man (as well as EC Powell and others) who made contributions to providing us all with tools to understand and continue to develop taper design (Hexrod being one, a powerful and easily applied tool, I believe based on Garrison's math). What does the taper of a rod that roll cast well look like? 25 0.142 158834
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